Woodworking Online

[Morris Dovey]

Background:

A friend who saw the 3-1/2 axis CNC joinery machine I'm building
suggested that it might be a good idea to offer a 3-axis version of
the machine in kit form. It would be identical to the joinery machine
except that the z-axis could not be tilted.

The machine would use four 200 inch*ounce stepper motors producing 400
half-steps per revolution to drive 3/8"-12 TPI Acme lead screws - two
motors on the x-axis and one on each of the y- and z-axis. This
results in a linear step size of 1/4800" and (ignoring frictional
losses) increases the "oomph" of the 200 oz*in steppers by a factor of
12. Speed of movement will be limited by the speed of the controlling
PC; but 5"/sec is probably not an unreasonable expectation for
moderately slow machines.

The nominal work space (the actual range of movement will be larger)
is 12" x 12" x 4" (x, y, z).

There are four main groups of parts involved: (1) The wooden
structure, (2) The electricals (a controller box that plugs into a PC
printer port and provides power to the steppers - and the four stepper
motors), (3) the collection of hardware (bolts, washers, nuts, rails,
bearings, etc.), and (4) software to convert drawing (DXF) files to
CNC command files, and software that reads the command files and
communicates with the controller box to produce stepper activity.

Installing the software is a matter of downloading and un-zipping the
two packages. One of the packages requires registration and a $60
registration fee - and doing a fill-in-the-blanks configuration. I
don't provide either package; but feel that the package which requires
registration is a bargain.

Assembling the structure is quick and easy (15-30 minutes with an
allen wrench).

Assembling the controller box is probably an all-day job for most
people. It involves drilling, soldering, tapping holes, and a bit of
screwdriver work.

Some of the hardware requires cutting, drilling, and tapping metal and
plastic blanks. Most of these operations don't require what I think of
as advanced skills; but I'm aware that there may be woodworkers with
no metalworking experience at all. There is perhaps a day's work
involved.

My questions:

* Would anyone be interested in such a small machine?

* Should I expect kit builders to assemble the controller or should I
pre-assemble it and increase the price to include that labor - or
should I offer this as an option?

* Should I expect kit builders to do the preparatory operations on the
hardware, should I do that myself and build it into the kit price, or
should I offer this as an option?

* Should I discard the kit idea altogether and just offer finished
packages?

* Any other thoughts / suggestions?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

[Odinn]

On 3/13/2006 4:05 AM Morris Dovey mumbled something about the following:

[Guest]

Just personally, I think it would matter how technical the work would
be before I would jump into a kit like that. It doesn't sound too bad
the way you describe it.

So that would lead to the age old question: what is the value of the
completed machine compared to the finished machine? If the kit only
saves me 25%, I would probably rather have you build and most
importantly WARRANT your work. That would certainly be easier on both
of us than endless frutrating phone calls back and forth only to find
that the instructions were correct, the assembly was correct, but one
of the parts was defective.

I think you are correct in wondering that some/many would be
uncomfortable drilling, shaping, tapping, connecting and any other
processes that come along in the project might be more than they want
to tackle. Even if they can do it, they may not want to. A lot of
folks would rather be working on projects rather than building tools.

Robert

What are your target price parameters on this?

[Teamcasa]

"Morris Dovey" <mrdovey@iedu.com> wrote in message
news:eDaRf.108$7Y6.23673@news.uswest.net...

[Sailaway]

nailshooter41 penned the following:

[hex]

Morris Dovey wrote:

[mike hide]

"Morris Dovey" <mrdovey@iedu.com> wrote in message
news:eDaRf.108$7Y6.23673@news.uswest.net...

[Morris Dovey]

mike hide (in KNmdnV-0k_Ov84vZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@comcast.com) said:

| Ball park prices please ???

Less than US$2K. How does $1895 sound? I'm not sure that's where the
price will settle; but if any prepaid orders arrive this month, I'll
honor that guesstimate.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

[Morris Dovey]

Odinn (in NtednTFSiqCE8IjZRVn-gQ@adelphia.com) said:

| Offer all 3
|
| 1) complete kit (I'm interested in that)
| 2) partially assembled kit (for those who don't like fiddling with
| elect) 3) fully assembled (for those that want it now and have no
| patience for assembly)

[1] is easy to provide.

[2] is probably a must. See below.

[3] probably will be with electronics assembled and everything else
ready to bolt together so as to minimize risk of shipping damage.

I think I need to put a photo of the control box (without the cover
off) on my web page so that people can judge whether or not they want
to do this assembly themselves. I didn't think it was difficult; but
then I'm a computer geek and ham radio type - I might not be the best
test case. :-)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

[Morris Dovey]

nailshooter41@aol.com (in
1142260580.002662.46310@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com) said:

| Just personally, I think it would matter how technical the work
| would be before I would jump into a kit like that. It doesn't
| sound too bad the way you describe it.

I don't think it'd be hard for the average person. In truth, I don't
think that these things will sell to 'average' people. My guess is
that buyers will be tinkerers and explorers and people who like to
expand their personal horizons.

| So that would lead to the age old question: what is the value of
| the completed machine compared to the finished machine? If the kit
| only saves me 25%, I would probably rather have you build and most
| importantly WARRANT your work. That would certainly be easier on
| both of us than endless frutrating phone calls back and forth only
| to find that the instructions were correct, the assembly was
| correct, but one of the parts was defective.

Yup. I'd be comfortable with a warranty that says the machine will cut
a square square and a circular circle in a supplied piece of baltic
birch immediately after correct assembly and setup.

After that, all bets are off because /everyone/ will be using the
machine to do stuff they've never done before. Think about that a bit.
I have and it's both exciting and frightening. _Somebody_ is going to
cut titanium on their machine! Will the machine survive that? I dunno,
but I'm pretty sure I don't want to get caught up in a pissing match
if it doesn't...

I'm not joking. Today I routed aluminum parts for the first time (and
broke three solid carbide bits before I got it right - follow the link
in my sig for photos) with a machine intended for routing wood and
MDF. Whose fault is it that the bits broke?

Still, your point is a good one. Let's really open Pandora's box: post
the warranty you'd like to have and let's add and subtract here on the
wreck. Keep in mind that the warranty _will_ affect the price.

| I think you are correct in wondering that some/many would be
| uncomfortable drilling, shaping, tapping, connecting and any other
| processes that come along in the project might be more than they
| want to tackle. Even if they can do it, they may not want to. A
| lot of folks would rather be working on projects rather than
| building tools.

Yup again. I'm already convinced of that. See my response to Odinn.

| What are your target price parameters on this?

Under US$2K - but that could be affected by the extent of the
warranty...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/JBot.html

[Odinn]

On 3/13/2006 4:05 AM Morris Dovey mumbled something about the following:

[Morris Dovey]

Sailaway (in AHlRf.110$v27.82@fe08.lga) said:

| nailshooter41 penned the following:
| >I think you are correct in wondering that some/many would be
| >uncomfortable drilling, shaping, tapping, connecting and any other
| >processes that come along in the project might be more than they
| want >to tackle. Even if they can do it, they may not want to. A
| lot of >folks would rather be working on projects rather than
| building tools.
|
| Maybe they would want some help. I am new at fine woodworking, but I
| love building and repairing machines and tools and is something I
| have experience with. Hey Morris, want a field tech rep to assist
| builders? The software part is, unfortunately, something I do not
| have experience with.
| Personally, I would want a larger cnc router kit than you are
| building.

Everybody will want some help. Everybody will _need_ some help.
Somewhere down the road I may be able to afford a savvy technical
resource; but doday it's just me.

The software part is important. That's what drives the first letter of
'CNC'.

There are larger machines already on the market - check out the
ShopBot for a reasonably-priced larger CNC machine.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

[Morris Dovey]

Teamcasa (in 1142268345_8117@sp6iad.superfeed.net) said:

| I all depends on who you plan to market it too. Projected price
| point. Home hobbyist
| Serious home hobbyist
| Small cabinet shop
| Custom cabinet shop
| Production cabinet shop
| Small, medium or large commission furniture/custom woodworking shop
|
| Each has a point the machine will cease to have value.
| For me, I rarely shy from a tool due to its cost/value. That said,
| I want multi router but no matter how extreme I stretch my
| justifications, I can't make it fly. I am planing on making my own
| in the near future.

For this machine, I'd be inclined to cut the list off after the
'custom cabinet shop' entry; and warn that even a small cabinet shop
could make good use of a 48x96 machine - and that if the 48x96 machine
were in place, it would probably suffice.

That's true of the hobbiest market too, but not many hobbiests
can/will spend for the larger machine.

This machine should be just the ticket for learning and/or for small,
intricate work requiring greater precision/repeatability than is
otherwise reasonable.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

[Morris Dovey]

hex (in 1142304279.849178.101630@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com) said:

| Morris Dovey wrote:
||
|| The nominal work space (the actual range of movement will be
|| larger) is 12" x 12" x 4" (x, y, z).
|
| I'm not sure about 12x12. 16.25 x 16.25 would probably have a
| larger market ( 16" panels could be machined). Also for many many
| turners the largest swing over bed would max out at 16" so this
| would allow recesses for inlays etc. I would guess there is more
| market for larger x,y with lesser z.

Tell me what size and make me an offer
|
| Having done some heavy work with stepper motors in the past (11ton
| positioned to 0.5mm in x,y, over an 8' x6' throw) I've always
| wanted a lightweight toy to play with in the shop by have never had
| the time to run down the details nor find motors and controllers
| that don't cost a kings ransom. Another market you may find well
| served would be folks who want to put in some sort of diamond
| cutter to do custom glass work.

Once the basic x, y, z capability is in place, the options for
choosing tools to mount is pretty much wide open. (I would not suggest
installing a plasma cutting head on this machine, though!)

Choosing the right components is the most difficult part of the job.
It's a lot more difficult than finding the best prices.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

[Morris Dovey]

Odinn (in KaydnXXqdPIMKovZnZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d@adelphia.com) said:

| Oh yeah, one more thought. Any chance of making this a bit larger,
| say 18x18 or 24x24?

Sure. Tell me a bit about what you want to do with it and I'll be
happy to quote.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto