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RichardS
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 Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 12:22 pm Post subject: Japanese rip saw technique |
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<reposted from uk.d-i-y>
I have a Japanese Kataba saw (the ones in the Axminster catalogue) with a
rip-cut "hassunme" profile. "Just the thing for effortlessly ripping long
boards" they say... well, they would, wouldn't they!
The problem is that I find it exceptionally difficult to use, far from
effortless, in fact so difficult that I assume that there must be something
drastically wrong with my technique. I'm trying to rip some 20mm(ish) thick
european oak, but it seems similarly difficult with pine and other woods
that I have tried.
With a traditional (to us) western pattern saw you'd work from the top,
sawing at an angle, and it cuts on the push stroke. So when ripping the
teeth essentially chisel through the fibres at and angle, and thinking about
it each fibre is supported by the one below it so it's a relatively easy,
clean cut.
However, with a japanese pullsaw it seems to me that working from above
means that the teeth are always digging directly into the end grain, and I
can't square this with an "easy sawing action".
Sawing from underneath (if you see what I mean) is easy, the saw glides
through the wood as I would expect, and I can easily see the cut line on the
surface. However this isn't a comfortable working position, not practical
for long boards and strikes me as not being the technique at all.
Saw from the top, but hold the saw such that the teeth form an oblique angle
with the board surface? Fine, works, but how do you follow the cutting line
(not that you have much chance with a ripsaw if it wanders off the line
anyway)?
Or perhaps it shoudl be held so that the cutting edge is perpendicular to
the board surface?
Anyone care to enlighten me on correct technique?
--
Richard Sampson
email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk |
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Hoyt Weathers
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Japanese rip saw technique |
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RichardS wrote:
| Quote: |
reposted from uk.d-i-y
I have a Japanese Kataba saw (the ones in the Axminster catalogue) with a
rip-cut "hassunme" profile. "Just the thing for effortlessly ripping long
boards" they say... well, they would, wouldn't they!
The problem is that I find it exceptionally difficult to use, far from
effortless, in fact so difficult that I assume that there must be something
drastically wrong with my technique. I'm trying to rip some 20mm(ish) thick
european oak, but it seems similarly difficult with pine and other woods
that I have tried.
With a traditional (to us) western pattern saw you'd work from the top,
sawing at an angle, and it cuts on the push stroke. So when ripping the
teeth essentially chisel through the fibres at and angle, and thinking about
it each fibre is supported by the one below it so it's a relatively easy,
clean cut.
However, with a japanese pullsaw it seems to me that working from above
means that the teeth are always digging directly into the end grain, and I
can't square this with an "easy sawing action".
Sawing from underneath (if you see what I mean) is easy, the saw glides
through the wood as I would expect, and I can easily see the cut line on the
surface. However this isn't a comfortable working position, not practical
for long boards and strikes me as not being the technique at all.
Saw from the top, but hold the saw such that the teeth form an oblique angle
with the board surface? Fine, works, but how do you follow the cutting line
(not that you have much chance with a ripsaw if it wanders off the line
anyway)?
Or perhaps it shoudl be held so that the cutting edge is perpendicular to
the board surface?
Anyone care to enlighten me on correct technique?
--
Richard Sampson
email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk
|
Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut it? Or am I missing
something?
Hoyt W. |
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Mitch Berkson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Japanese rip saw technique |
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Hoyt Weathers wrote:
| Quote: |
Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut it?
Or am I missing something?
|
Presumably sawdust covers the line if it is on top since the saw cuts on the
pull stroke.
Mitch Berkson |
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RichardS
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Japanese rip saw technique |
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"Mitch Berkson" <mitch_news@bermita.com> wrote in message
news:URmsc.5293$0d6.2276@lakeread03...
| Quote: |
Hoyt Weathers wrote:
Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut it?
Or am I missing something?
Presumably sawdust covers the line if it is on top since the saw cuts on
the
pull stroke.
|
That's not really the problem, though it wouldn't help. Have lungs, can
blow dust away... :-)
The problem it seems to me is that if I'm cutting at an oblique angle then
the saw teeth under the board will be ahead of he ones above the board,
which seems intrinsically more difficult to follow the cut line.
Perhaps I'm worrying about this particular aspect too much and a little more
practice is called for.
I was just hoping that someone might be able to set me straight and say "ah,
yes, the reason you're finding it difficult is because you're trying to use
the saw in a western way, and the technique for Japanese ripsaws is
fundamentally different, and you use it like this...."
--
Richard Sampson
email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk |
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Frank McVey
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Japanese rip saw technique |
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"RichardS" <noaccess@invalid> wrote in message
<snip>
| Quote: |
yes, the reason you're finding it difficult is because you're trying to
use
the saw in a western way, and the technique for Japanese ripsaws is
fundamentally different, and you use it like this...."
|
Could well be. Japanese craftsmen squat or kneel at their work, I'm told, so
if the plank to be ripped is on sawhorses or their equivalent, he could well
be working from underneath.
Just a thought.
Frank
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Version: 6.0.688 / Virus Database: 449 - Release Date: 18/05/2004 |
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RichardS
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Japanese rip saw technique |
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"Frank McVey" <frank.mcvey2@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:ee48a2ba58b305bcba51c9a12b8344bb@news.teranews.com...
| Quote: |
"RichardS" <noaccess@invalid> wrote in message
snip
yes, the reason you're finding it difficult is because you're trying to
use
the saw in a western way, and the technique for Japanese ripsaws is
fundamentally different, and you use it like this...."
Could well be. Japanese craftsmen squat or kneel at their work, I'm told,
so
if the plank to be ripped is on sawhorses or their equivalent, he could
well
be working from underneath.
|
yup, this is something that I heard about as well.
I've also read somewhere that the majority of tradional japanese woodworking
would be done whilst seated, and this would give rise to markedly different
techniques to western woodworking.
I'm scouring the web trying to find confirmation of this, but, with the
profusion of catalogue and directory sites being returned, google just isn't
as useful as it once was !!!
--
Richard Sampson
email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk |
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RichardS
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: Japanese rip saw technique |
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"RichardS" <noaccess@invalid> wrote in message
news:40b20142$0$2104$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk...
| Quote: |
"Frank McVey" <frank.mcvey2@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:ee48a2ba58b305bcba51c9a12b8344bb@news.teranews.com...
"RichardS" <noaccess@invalid> wrote in message
snip
yes, the reason you're finding it difficult is because you're trying
to
use
the saw in a western way, and the technique for Japanese ripsaws is
fundamentally different, and you use it like this...."
Could well be. Japanese craftsmen squat or kneel at their work, I'm
told,
so
if the plank to be ripped is on sawhorses or their equivalent, he could
well
be working from underneath.
yup, this is something that I heard about as well.
I've also read somewhere that the majority of tradional japanese
woodworking
would be done whilst seated, and this would give rise to markedly
different
techniques to western woodworking.
I'm scouring the web trying to find confirmation of this, but, with the
profusion of catalogue and directory sites being returned, google just
isn't
as useful as it once was !!!
|
aha! just found this - appear to be getting somewhere...
http://home.earthlink.net/~nokogiri/FPHE.html
--
Richard Sampson
email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk |
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Hoyt Weathers
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: Japanese rip saw technique |
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Mitch Berkson wrote:
| Quote: |
Hoyt Weathers wrote:
Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut it?
Or am I missing something?
Presumably sawdust covers the line if it is on top since the saw cuts on the
pull stroke.
Mitch Berkson
|
The simple solution to that is just intermittently blow away the dust and keep on
sawing. I do that all the time on most cuts with a Jap pull saw. It doesn't take a
rocket scientist to cut a board with a pull saw.
Hoyt W. |
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Hoyt Weathers
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: Japanese rip saw technique |
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RichardS wrote:
snip, snip
| Quote: |
Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut it?
Or am I missing something?
Presumably sawdust covers the line if it is on top since the saw cuts on
the
pull stroke.
That's not really the problem, though it wouldn't help. Have lungs, can
blow dust away... :-)
The problem it seems to me is that if I'm cutting at an oblique angle then
the saw teeth under the board will be ahead of he ones above the board,
which seems intrinsically more difficult to follow the cut line.
|
Oblique angle to what? Which cut direction - towards you or away from you?
I get the sinking feeling that you are cutting AWAY from you for some unstated
reason. Is this what you are doing? If so, why? Everyone I know cuts toward
themselves. Cutting a board is not rocket science.
Assume you hold the saw at about 45 degrees or less to the board to be cut. Also
assume there is a cut line on the top side of the board. Also assume you pull the
saw towards you as you adhere to the cut line and make the rip cut. If all of those
assumptions are TRUE, then the saw teeth UNDER the board could NOT be ahead of the
ones ABOVE the board. No way!
The word *ahead* could have two or more meanings I suppose. One would be related to
position. Another could be related to time. I assume time is not a factor in this.
Why not just play around with it on some crappie scrap? No harm done for sure.
Hoyt W.
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RichardS
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Japanese rip saw technique |
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"Hoyt Weathers" <ahab@hiwaay.net> wrote in message
news:40B204DE.638B51C7@hiwaay.net...
| Quote: |
Mitch Berkson wrote:
Hoyt Weathers wrote:
Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut it?
Or am I missing something?
Presumably sawdust covers the line if it is on top since the saw cuts on
the
pull stroke.
Mitch Berkson
The simple solution to that is just intermittently blow away the dust and
keep on
sawing. I do that all the time on most cuts with a Jap pull saw. It
doesn't take a
rocket scientist to cut a board with a pull saw.
|
true. I am specifically talking about the technique for ripping a board
here, and my puzzlement as to why I appear to be experiencing such
difficulty.
--
Richard Sampson
email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk |
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Bay Area Dave
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Japanese rip saw technique |
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are you pissed I didn't fall for your ruse on Friday?
dave
Hoyt Weathers wrote:
| Quote: |
RichardS wrote:
snip, snip
Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut it?
Or am I missing something?
Presumably sawdust covers the line if it is on top since the saw cuts on
the
pull stroke.
That's not really the problem, though it wouldn't help. Have lungs, can
blow dust away... :-)
The problem it seems to me is that if I'm cutting at an oblique angle then
the saw teeth under the board will be ahead of he ones above the board,
which seems intrinsically more difficult to follow the cut line.
Oblique angle to what? Which cut direction - towards you or away from you?
I get the sinking feeling that you are cutting AWAY from you for some unstated
reason. Is this what you are doing? If so, why? Everyone I know cuts toward
themselves. Cutting a board is not rocket science.
Assume you hold the saw at about 45 degrees or less to the board to be cut. Also
assume there is a cut line on the top side of the board. Also assume you pull the
saw towards you as you adhere to the cut line and make the rip cut. If all of those
assumptions are TRUE, then the saw teeth UNDER the board could NOT be ahead of the
ones ABOVE the board. No way!
The word *ahead* could have two or more meanings I suppose. One would be related to
position. Another could be related to time. I assume time is not a factor in this.
Why not just play around with it on some crappie scrap? No harm done for sure.
Hoyt W.
|
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Hoyt Weathers
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Japanese rip saw technique |
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RichardS wrote:
| Quote: |
"Hoyt Weathers" <ahab@hiwaay.net> wrote in message
news:40B204DE.638B51C7@hiwaay.net...
Mitch Berkson wrote:
Hoyt Weathers wrote:
Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut it?
Or am I missing something?
Presumably sawdust covers the line if it is on top since the saw cuts on
the
pull stroke.
Mitch Berkson
The simple solution to that is just intermittently blow away the dust and
keep on
sawing. I do that all the time on most cuts with a Jap pull saw. It
doesn't take a
rocket scientist to cut a board with a pull saw.
true. I am specifically talking about the technique for ripping a board
here, and my puzzlement as to why I appear to be experiencing such
difficulty.
--
Richard Sampson
email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk
|
A light bulb just turned on. Perchance, are you sitting in the Japanese position
BELOW the board when you try to cut it? [ I would never do that because saw dust
would get all over me. ] If so, why isn't the cut line also facing you on that side
of the board? If it is, then what is the problem in following the cut line?
If the cut line is on TOP of the board and you are sawing from BELOW the board, then
I agree with you that the cut could be off the marked cut line.
Then my question becomes: Is there a particular reason why you wish to cut that way?
To each his own I suppose.
Perhaps I am still not getting your point.
Hoyt W. |
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RichardS
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Japanese rip saw technique |
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|
"Hoyt Weathers" <ahab@hiwaay.net> wrote in message
news:40B20AB5.BF3B5085@hiwaay.net...
| Quote: |
RichardS wrote:
snip, snip
Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut
it?
Or am I missing something?
Presumably sawdust covers the line if it is on top since the saw cuts
on
the
pull stroke.
That's not really the problem, though it wouldn't help. Have lungs, can
blow dust away... :-)
The problem it seems to me is that if I'm cutting at an oblique angle
then
the saw teeth under the board will be ahead of he ones above the board,
which seems intrinsically more difficult to follow the cut line.
Oblique angle to what? Which cut direction - towards you or away from you?
I get the sinking feeling that you are cutting AWAY from you for some
unstated
reason. Is this what you are doing? If so, why? Everyone I know cuts
toward
themselves. Cutting a board is not rocket science.
|
see below for how I arrive at this state of affairs....
| Quote: |
Assume you hold the saw at about 45 degrees or less to the board to be
cut. Also
assume there is a cut line on the top side of the board. Also assume you
pull the
saw towards you as you adhere to the cut line and make the rip cut. If all
of those
assumptions are TRUE, then the saw teeth UNDER the board could NOT be
ahead of the
ones ABOVE the board. No way!
The word *ahead* could have two or more meanings I suppose. One would be
related to
position. Another could be related to time. I assume time is not a factor
in this.
Why not just play around with it on some crappie scrap? No harm done for
sure.
|
don't worry - I always play around on crappie scrap when using techniques
new to me. Also, when I first got this saw I started off by attempting to
use it in exactly the same way as I would a push saw - ie cutting towards
me, saw angled at about 45 degrees, teeth (obviously) pointing downwards.
What I did not experience was any ease whatsoever in starting off the rip
cut, nor in continuing it once started. The teeth would dig in, and there
was huge resistance in cutting, this is why I began to wonder if my normal
western technique could be completely wrong for a Japanese pullsaw when
ripping.
In an attempt to describe what I mean I'll revert back to a western-style
push saw for a moment:
Starting off a rip cut I would position the saw such that the teeth point
downwards, the end of the board is in front of me, the angle of the saw
teeth to the face of the board is at an acute angle, 45 degrees or so, I am
cutting towards me. Sorry if this is stating the obvious but I really want
to get back to first principles here so that there can be absolutely no
misunderstanding. The cut is made on the push stroke.
Now, considering the action of the individual teeth, they have a chiselling
action, cutting out kerf-width bits of the fibre, and the fibres are cut in
such a way that each tooth engages with the topmost edge of the fibre, if
you can see what I mean.
reverting to the japanese saw:
When I use the (rip tooth profile) pullsaw cutting in the same way above
this does not seem to be the cutting action.
True, each tooth still chisels out it's piece of wood, but instead of
starting on the surface of the board when it's cutting it is always digging
into the end grain.
If I was to take a chisel and try to remove a bit of stock along the grain
it is easy to start from the surface of the board and chop out that piece.
If I was to start from the end grain and try and chop towards the surface of
the board it would not be easy and the wood would probably tear out. Stupid
example, perhaps, but illustrates the point.
No matter how lightly I hold the saw aganst the board it digs in.
So, I'm unfamiliar with use of this tool and start trying other techniques
for it's use.
The first thing I try is to turn everything around. Start off with the
board in front of me, facing the board end. Hold saw at 45 degree angle to
board face, with handle pointing downards and teeth down (sorry, being
explicit here again), cutting away from me. Sails through the board like
butter. However, this is obviously impractical for cutting a long rip in a
board. Flip the saw around so that cutting away still, but now handle above
the board and teeth pointing upwards. Also sails through, but obviously you
cannot see the cutting line.
So, sorry if this sounds like a really stupid question/thread, I'm just
puzzled, that's all! If the answer is "use just like you would a western
rip saw" then fine, I'll go away and practice until I get the technique.
IMHO good woodworking is 90% technique, and I like to use correct technique
and refine it until perfect results.
--
Richard Sampson
email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk |
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RichardS
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Japanese rip saw technique |
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|
"Hoyt Weathers" <ahab@hiwaay.net> wrote in message
news:40B2106F.ACF3E261@hiwaay.net...
| Quote: |
RichardS wrote:
"Hoyt Weathers" <ahab@hiwaay.net> wrote in message
news:40B204DE.638B51C7@hiwaay.net...
Mitch Berkson wrote:
Hoyt Weathers wrote:
Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut
it?
Or am I missing something?
Presumably sawdust covers the line if it is on top since the saw
cuts on
the
pull stroke.
Mitch Berkson
The simple solution to that is just intermittently blow away the dust
and
keep on
sawing. I do that all the time on most cuts with a Jap pull saw. It
doesn't take a
rocket scientist to cut a board with a pull saw.
true. I am specifically talking about the technique for ripping a
board
here, and my puzzlement as to why I appear to be experiencing such
difficulty.
--
Richard Sampson
email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk
A light bulb just turned on. Perchance, are you sitting in the Japanese
position
BELOW the board when you try to cut it? [ I would never do that because
saw dust
would get all over me. ] If so, why isn't the cut line also facing you on
that side
of the board? If it is, then what is the problem in following the cut
line?
No, I was trying to work from above the board, but then this might be the |
beginning of my error in trying to use a japanese traditional tool in a
western manner. Hopefully my other post might explain the progression of
my experimentation a little more clearly..
| Quote: |
If the cut line is on TOP of the board and you are sawing from BELOW the
board, then
I agree with you that the cut could be off the marked cut line.
Cut line is wherever I can see it!  |
| Quote: |
Then my question becomes: Is there a particular reason why you wish to cut
that way?
To each his own I suppose.
Perhaps I am still not getting your point.
hopefully the other post I've just sent might explain a little more clearly. |
thanks for your patience so far, btw!
--
Richard Sampson
email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk |
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Hoyt Weathers
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: Japanese rip saw technique |
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RichardS wrote:
<big snip>
| Quote: |
So, sorry if this sounds like a really stupid question/thread, I'm just
puzzled, that's all! If the answer is "use just like you would a western
rip saw" then fine, I'll go away and practice until I get the technique.
IMHO good woodworking is 90% technique, and I like to use correct technique
and refine it until perfect results.
--
Richard Sampson
|
<snip>
Richard, I wish I could draw on a word program but I can't.
1. Keep in mind that the teeth of a Jap saw are very, very sharp - whether they are
rip or cross-cut saws.
2. Both rip and cross-cut Jap saws cut on the pull stroke.
I think it is obvious that you fully understand those two points. I do not wish to
imply that I am challenging you on those.
Forget about edge grain vs. long grain for the moment. They are relevant, but not
significantly so for this discussion at this time.
Yes, those sharp teeth will "dig" in as you say. For a given saw, how much and how
aggressive they dig in depends almost totally upon the sharpness of the teeth and the
amount of vertical pressure you exert on those teeth via the handle as you pull the
saw. Same as for a western saw, except on the push stoke. Within reason the more
pressure you apply, the more aggressive the saw will cut - up to a point.
Keep in mind that the Jap saw can and will bow or kink if pushed too hard and too
deeply on the reverse stroke. Those saw blades are thin because they are designed to
be used in tension and not in compression.
Try this:
Just put the saw with the blade resting on the edge to be cut. Do NOT put any
downward pressure via the handle. Then slowly and lightly pull the saw towards you.
It will try to cut, but is ineffective. It may bounce along, skipity hop, but that is
expected. The teeth tend to dig in, but do not do so very much because there is
almost no downward pressure to the saw teeth. They will just leave a small kerf mark
on the edge. I often do this to make a starter mark.
Then do the same as the above, but with suitable [ ? ] downward pressure via the
handle. Now what happens? The teeth cut into the wood. How much it cuts into the wood
is a direct and proportional function of the force applied to those sharp teeth.
Western physics is identical to Japanese physics.
To reverse the stroke, move the saw forward with no downward pressure at all and
keeping the saw blade deep in the kerf.
Repeat as above until the saw cuts as much as you wish of the board.
I hope the above does not appear to be sophomoric to you. That is certainly not my
intention. Let's keep at this until you are fully satisfied with yourself - not us.
At this point I will stop and pitch it back to you for comments and questions.
Hoyt W. |
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